Thursday, August 10, 2006

Israel: U.N. deal must disarm Hezbollah

A U.N.-declared cease-fire to stop the fighting between
Israel and Hezbollah guerrillas must ensure that the militant Shiite group cannot be rearmed by Syria and Iran, a senior Israeli official said Sunday.

Israel has refused to comment officially on the text of a U.N. Security Council resolution to end the conflict, worked out between the United States and France, because it is still in the draft stage.

Israel Radio reported that Prime Minister Ehud Olmert told his Cabinet ministers not to comment on the draft, which envisions an end to hostilities followed by positioning of an international peace force.

But Foreign Ministry spokesman Mark Regev outlined basic Israeli demands in an interview with Associated Press Television News.

"Ultimately, as we move into the cease-fire, we have to make sure that what will be negotiated at the United Nations ensures that Hezbollah will not be allowed to be resupplied by Iran or Syria," Regev said.

"Israel will support a U.N. resolution that will ensure, among other things, that Hezbollah cannot use the cease-fire to rearm, retrain and prepare for another round."

Officials said Israel had no intention to end its offensive for the time being. Justice Minister Haim Ramon said Israel would not withdraw from a buffer zone in south Lebanon until an international force arrived.

"Even if it is passed, it is doubtful that Hezbollah will honor the resolution and halt its fire," Ramon told Israel's Army Radio. "Therefore we have to continue fighting, continue hitting anyone we can hit in Hezbollah, and I assume that as long as that goes on, Israel's position, diplomatically and militarily, will improve."

Get The Story At Yahoo News.

So Lebanon has demanded that the United Nations must force Israel to withdraw its military forces from southern Lebanon and end the fighting that is taking place between Israel and the terrorist organization Hezbollah.

Lets face it people the Unites Nations is a pretty much worthless organization with no balls or bite, they have repeatedly been an obstacle in dealing with the worlds problems and allowing madmen to have free reign in countries like, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Darfur, South Korea, Somalia and Afghanistan.

The United Nations has shown the world its incompetence many times over in the past few years; it may be good dealing with international aid and things of that nature, but they do not have the power to act quickly and forcefully when it is needed to do.

Iraq had been blowing them off for years, not listening to the continuous UN Security Council resolutions calling for arms inspectors, not to mention the total disaster involving the “oil for food” program, in which millions were made by Saddam while starving his people into submission.

Israel is the most condemned country in the history of the United Nations, while this may please and pacify the crazies out there on the liberal left and the Jewish hating Arab world; it does nothing to combat the terror that Israel finds itself fighting on a regular basis just to exist.

Time is running out for Israel, they need to inflict as much damage as they can with the limited amount of time they have on the Hezbollah infrastructure and military strongholds before the overwhelming international pressure is more than Israel and the United States are able to bear.

President Bush has been a staunch supporter of Israel and its right to go after those who attack it, including what we are seeing now take place in the Gaza strip with Hamas and in southern Lebanon with Hezbollah.

The main reason I believe that we have allowed Israel so much space to conduct military operations against Hezbollah is that, this administration believes a confrontation between ourselves and Iran is just over the horizon, and if Israel can take out one of Iran best and most effective weapons in Hezbollah, it will make our job later much more easier.

Either way I fully support Israel in all of their military operations that they are conducting at this time, and hope that those smelly bed sheet wearing terrorist degenerates get what’s coming to them!


jarhead john said...

The looney left is blind to the terrorist nutjuobs agenda. The entire Islamic world supports Hezbollah, and condemns Israel. The dummycrats chime right in alongside them.

Rightwing Guy said...

Thats what u get from the blame America first crowd

Rightwing Guy said...

I will continue to delete your comments Tom unless you have something other to add other than your hate and insults. You claim to have such a high IQ and all but can't seem to do anything but act like a 10 yr old. If that is the case please keep your comments to yourself

Tom said...

Waaa.. typical.. don't like to be called a cheeto eating chicken hawk coward.. but you really have no reponse other than some mysterious run in with the law and a bad knee? Surrreee.. I believe that one..

Come on.. just admit it.. you like the death and destruction, but only from mom's basement..

Delete them.. whatever.. but that simply reinforces my point that you are nothing but an authoritarian cultist, a very cowardly one at that, who simply deletes comments, under some claim of it merely being insulting. Of course it's insulting.. but the fact remains.. the fight is there, and you are here. Go figure..

It reminds me of the Bush rallies where all dissenting voices had to be moved off to a "free speech zone"... a term I find very ironic.

Tom said...

And on a more serious note.. I find it ironic that you refer to my posts as "hate", after reading the violent hate filled rants you post day after day.

My condemnation is directed at hypocrits and cowards.. and religious nutballs of all flavors. You simply advocate for genocide.. that's not very hateful at all, is it?

Rightwing Guy said...

you know tom, when i was 18 i did enlist and i was discharged for medical reasons, and i was not happy about that. I was in basic, and i hope once again to be there. What have you done tom?
Doesn't matter thought, to a liberal like you whatever i saw will be a lie and i'm a coward. My family is rooted in the military, and I am very proud of that. I have had family in every war we have fought since world war I, as I do in this current war. It is my hope and it would be my honor to serve this country as my family members have and are doing so. For your information, it is not that easy for me to get back in, i know i have been trying for some time. I will achieve that for myself, because unlike you I belive it is my duty to fight for this country, and to help make sure that American lives are protected at all costs.
You have nothing but 10yr old insults, I suggest you grow up.

Tom said...

Actually.. I engineer software and databases for the Veterans Administration.. I've seen the horrifying effects of war. I go to the local VA hospitals.. I conference with surgeons and anesthesiologists and nurses about how best to improve the technology that helps treat the vets. I know that right this moment, there are surgeons and nurses all over this nation using the systems I've created in order to treat a soldier that was injured in combat or otherwise.

I've seen guys your age that will never walk again, or never hold their kids.. or guys who will simply never be like they were... and when I see the drivel like I've seen here, from guys that have absolutely not clue about anything other than right wing republican talking points they get from Sean Hannity (also didn't serve) or Rush Limbaugh (didn't serve) or Bill O'Reilley (didn't serve), it's really damn irritating.

I do NOT support the illegal and misguided invasion of another country that was not threatening us. I do NOT support sending somebody else off to fight an immoral war in my name. I do NOT support using the US military to "free" other nation's peoples. I do NOT feel any need at all to enlist or kill people who are not my enemy.

But I like how your story is changing.. first it was a "law" issue.. and then it was a knee.. and now you've actually made it into basic training before being discharged. The short of it is, you're not there.

I'd "fight for this country" if I felt there was actually a fight worth having. This is just an immoral blood bath, exactly the same as Vietnam.. My family is just as "rooted" in the military as anyone’s. That means nothing. My father served in the battle of Luzon, in the 8th Cavalry.. as well as other battles, and the occupation. That really doesn't have much to do with me.. that was his war and his time.

This is simply another misguided horrendous loss of life. But hey.. just like Murtha.. even though I actually do something to contribute other than just typing insanity of death and destruction on a blog.. I'm the bad guy.

Rightwing Guy said...

my story is all one in the same, when i was 18 i enlisted, when i was discharged i continued to work out play sports, I blew out my acl playing basketball about 2 months after i returned, than i got in trouble with the law. I have had to over come a few things to get where i even am today. God willing I will be in a uniform within the year.
You may think me ignorant because you think yourself so smart, but i know what war is and i know its not pretty, I believe its a very noble cause to spread freedom around the world. What are we if we do not try to improve the world for all people. Yes I do hate, I hate the enemies of this country, I hate people who want to saw my head of for no other reason other than I am American and I do not believe in thier god.

Tom said...

Wow.. this gets better and better..

So what you're saying is, you're willing to go fight and die for some other nation's "freedom"?

I assume this includes Darfur.. North Korea.. Iran.. China.. let me see if I can think of any more "people living under opression".

You do know that was not how the war was sold, right? You do know that the soldiers that went over thought it was because of WMD's, "imminent threats" and 9/11, right? All of that turned out to be bunk.

Never before in the history of this nation have we sent our military to war to "free" anybody. It has always been in self-defense after demonstrated hostility to our nation.. as evidenced by the German and Japanese attacks in World War 2.

Ya.. we can "improve" the world for other people.. through scientific advacement, technology, health care improvements, good old fashion charity if you will.. Bombing them into the ground is not helping. It's just been one disaster after the next. Hell, for all the money that's been spent so far, we probably could have just bought Iraq from Saddam Hussien..

I think you're ignorant because you have a very limited view of the world, very little education, very little experience, and very warped sense of nationality.

Have you even spent any time outside the United States? Just once maybe?

Tom said...

This is freedom.. but hey.. it's the Iraqi's fault, right? We handed them "freedom" on a silver platter and they act like they don't know what to do with it. That can't be our fault.. no no..

But lets stay there anyway, right? Surely we can teach them what "freedom" means, otherwise we should just get the hell out now, right?

Stay or go, it's all the same.. except the number of dead and maimed Americans.

Iraq has to be a serial killer's paradise. Scores of dead bodies turn up on dumping grounds outside the country's main cities every morning. Iraqi police reports speak of corpses discovered bound, often showing signs of torture, and shot in the head. And yet nobody is ever arrested and charged with the killings. The overload of bodies prompted Baghdad's main morgue to announce this week that due to lack of storage space they would from now on keep corpses for only two weeks before burying them in mass graves.

Tom said...

How's your cheetos today?

RAMADI, Iraq — After a long day searching homes in suffocating Iraqi heat, Lance Cpl. Mike Young saw a most surprising source of relief _ a sprawling Wal-Mart had appeared in the distance.

"No joke _ looking through the haze I thought I saw a Wal-Mart. I said to myself, 'I bet they got some cold water in there,'" Young said, recalling a mission last year in a rural area west of Baghdad.

He contemplated running over to fetch water for fellow Marines who were "staggering like dead men." Three of them had collapsed in the heat.

Young soon stirred from his heat-induced hallucination and returned to the struggle of enduring summertime in Iraq.

Daytime temperatures in the Iraqi summer usually range from a low of about 105 degrees Fahrenheit to about 125. Though most bases have added air conditioning, grunts must still venture out to man their posts or patrol steaming streets under an unrelenting sun.

Rightwing Guy said...

See what savages do to eachother. because i dont have a piece of paper dont think that I am nt educated, and you would be surprised at the experiences that I have had in my life, do not claim to know me or anythign about me. To free people from oppresion is a responsiblity that we have because we are the most powerful, remeber that old saying, "with great power, comes great responsibility", I believe that.
Not everyone is able to throw off such governments as we were able to do. Those people we fight would have no problem chopping your head off either if you dont bow down to Islam.

Tom said...

Well, all I can say is good luck. You are in a very small minority of people that think it's our problem to fix issues in other countries.. and we better make sure that each soldier knows that is what they are risking their lives for.. because the guys that went to Iraq didn't go for that reason.

Personally.. I think that's beyond nuts.. I mean really.. I haven't heard anyone advocate that position but you.. and it's obvious that it can't be done in any case.. just look at Iraq.

And one last thing.. this head chopping thing.. it's really weird the way some people fixate on it as it it's different than taking a bullet or a 500 pound bomb. Dead is dead. It's all the same thing when it's done.

I'm not afraid of any Muslim. I'm not afraid of any knife weilding psycho. I'm not afraid of travelling, or living life. I'm not afraid of terrorists.

So.. good luck with your mission to free all the world's opressed people. That's a really big job..

Rightwing Guy said...

it is a big job, because we have to deal with people like you who don't give a shit about anyone but themselves. The difference between a bomb, a bullet, and the way they behead people. The US and Israel do not chant and pray to our god as we kill people, and we sure as hell are not going around killing people, women and children included, in the name of our god!

Lord Brown Mouse said...

Great debate guys - i think both of u r great despite ur different opinions.

i love u both!

and u love each other really!


jarhead john said...

Hmmm, let me get this straight tom; you'd "fight" if there was a fight that you approve of? So enlisting in the military is only horable when a conflict that suits you comes along? Last time I checked we (service members) don't get to choose the conflicts; we simply go where our elected officials send us. Agreeing with political decisions is a moot point.

jarhead john said...

oops, should have read: honorable

Rightwing Guy said...

My friend, this is what I must deal with only a regular basis.

Z said...

we simply go where our elected officials send us. Agreeing with political decisions is a moot point.

So Jarhead John - anything is OK as long as you are told to do it by someone higher in authority than you? Why question your political leaders' actions, right? I'm sure the nazi guards didn't.

Rightwing Guy said...

His job is to follow orders, as is every person in the service.

Bushwack said...

Sounds like you got your hands full here RWG,
As always the appeasment strategy is the left's best option until something happens at home. then the finger pointing starts "Why didn't we do something first" "The government didn't do enough to stop it" and short memories on the far left can't remember 9-11 or any of the Muslim radical victim's before and after. It's hard to stand up to a bully when your classmates are thier friends.

jarhead john said...

Well z, my psychic powers aren't what they used to be. I can't forsee the future any more than you can. I enlisted to serve my country, vice just bitching and whining about it. I keep enlisting every four years because I'm good at what I do, and somebody's got to do it (since folks like you seem to lack the spine for it). Yes, I go where I'm sent. You would probably prefer a military full of dissent and empty of discipline. That would be just peachy until they actually had to fight.

You should try pulling your head out once in a while and taking a look at the real world.

Rightwing Guy said...

effecitive words my friend

Z said...

LOL - that is some good stuff.

You would probably prefer a military full of dissent and empty of discipline.

Of course not. But I would prefer that it happen because the war is just and on the grounds that it was sold to us as. Nobody was dissenting in WWII. Why? Because it was a just war to fight.

But you know, I just find it amusing that you think people should be willing to fight a war for something they don't believe in. Because "someone has to do it", right? How incredibly stupid do you have to be to fight a war for something you don't believe in? How mentally diminished do you have to be to FIGHT AGAINST YOUR OWN BELIEFS?

Tom said...


This is so nutzoid it's beginning to become a farce. Really - most of you are blind authoritarian cultists.. seriously.. blind and oblivious. Of course I'm not going to enlist for combat in an unjust war. Duh.. I mean, how incredibly retarded is that? When someone is in the military, they are subject to the military guidelines.. they signed to it.. but a person would have to be remarkably stupid to enlist to fight in a war they oppose. Nobody here is fighting in it anyway.. and I'm arguing with chickenhawks which is rather silly of me.. but whatever.

I feel like I'm arguing with people who haven't got the slightest idea what a logical mess their arguments are.

it is a big job, because we have to deal with people like you who don't give a shit about anyone but themselves.

You're not listening to me.. christ.. that's NOT how the Iraq war was sold, and you'd be laughed at trying to present an argument that our military should be used to "free oppressed people". I doubt you would get 10% public support for such a war - as the United States has NEVER fought such a war.. ever.

That you don't seem to get that is astonishing - yet people like me don't give a shit about others? Fuck you. I do far more to help vets than you'd ever dream of. I contribute more to charity in a year than you gross - because I actually put in the hard work to get someplace in life. I'm just not a stupid fuck that wants to die for some arab who I know absolutely nothing about.

You keep talking about how you hate these Muslims, yet you want to go fight and die for them? Dude, that's so fucked up I don't even know where to begin.. Abdul doesn't give a shit about you, but you're willing to die at 25 years of age for him? God damn...

Please.. by all means.. go free Abdul and spread "freedom" around the world.

The US and Israel do not chant and pray to our god as we kill people, and we sure as hell are not going around killing people, women and children included, in the name of our god!

And that really has nothing to do with anything.. There are over 1 billion Muslims in the world. A small fraction of them are nuts, just the same as a small fraction of any religion is nuts. You're just really emotional or some shit, and can't seem to grasp the concept that dead is dead - and however it happens is horrible. But you're the sort that's very easy to tweak with propaganda.

As always the appeasment strategy is the left's best option until something happens at home.

Well, there's another retarded right wing rhetorical argument. What's "appeasement" anyway? I support military intervention to defend this nation - obviously. Every liberal does. We just don't support pre-emptive wars whose justifications turned out to be completely untrue.

The danger of that, naturally, is that crying wolf will get you in seriously hot water if you really face a threat.

The right wing just has a blood lust, loves violence, and wants to kill - or rather you knuckleheads want somebody else to do the killing so you can whack off to the videos or news accounts.

This is my favorite nutzoid argument.. I hear it a lot..

the far left can't remember 9-11 or any of the Muslim radical victim's before and after.

The "left" supported the war in Afghanistan and hoped it would be conducted properly, and the Taliban not allowed to regroup. Alas - it's a mess. But get this chimpy - Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. And please spare me the trotting out of some "terrorist" that got some hospital treatment or other. That's a ludicrous argument to base a 150,000 man invasion on.

Everyone knows 9/11 was horrible, but invading Iraq was like the military invading China after Pearl Harbor. Duh.

There's not a single liberal that thinks we should have a weak defense against terrorism. Hell, we think the ports deal was horrible, and that vastly more shipping containers need to be examined, etc.

It's hard to stand up to a bully when your classmates are thier friends.

Good god.. I'm being insulted by somebody who can't spell "their".

RWG? No condemnation for the 10 year old style insults? Interesting.. he just said I'm a friend of terrorists.. oh and by the way.. Bushwhack.. fuck you, you coward. Jesus christ.. what the fuck is wrong with you? I'm thinking dueling banjos. What's your excuse for not being in Iraq?

Stupid fucks like you call me a terrorist sympathizer because I don't support unjust wars? Fuck you for being such a simplistic retard who's only argument comes down to the same tired clichés.

But, I keep forgetting that in your simplistic simian minds, you guys all lump every Muslim of every flavor and nationality into the same "boogey man" persona - because you're simply too ignorant to know any different.

It's sad really..

Lord Brown Mouse said...


A great debate.

Just a few views from me, your comment:

"There are over 1 billion Muslims in the world. A small fraction of them are nuts, just the same as a small fraction of any religion is nuts."

The problem with Islam, when compared with other religions is that the 'book' of Islam does seem to give great encouragement to dying in the name of Allah (and then going to heaven and enjoying a number of virgins etc), killing non-muslims wherever you may find them, not making friends with or trusting believers etc.

These comments do seem to appear fairly frequently throughout the koran.

Once you read the Koran, it is clear that there is a strong argument that the terrorists & suicide bombers are following the word of 'Allah' most accurately.

Christianity and other religions do not seem to advocate violence and lack of tolerance to other religions in quite the same way.

Islam also seems to infringe the rights of women and homosexuals, that we in the 'Christian' West find unacceptable.

Tom, I am not saying all Muslims are evil and all Christians good (I am an Atheist by the way), but there do not seem to be many Christian/Shikh/Buddist Suicide bombers or Fundamental Christian/Shikh/Buddist Terrorists waging Holy wars around the world.

Rightwing Guy said...

Very very good point my friend

Lord Brown Mouse said...

RWG - I think Tom is right - The USA/UK is in Iraq because it was perceived to be in our interest to rid Iraq of someone who refused to abide by the UN resolutions that obliged them to allow international weapons inspectors to make checks for WMD.

I agree we were misled about the presence of these weapons - but if Saddam had complied with the inspections he could still be in power now.

I think the principle that was demonstrated, was that you cannot fool around with WMD and get away with it.

Pity we didnt follow the same principle with pakistan, north korea and iran..

Bushwack said...

Tom; No FUCK YOU! and I have your chicken hawk right here in Riverside California. You insult someone you have no idea about? Call me a coward or chicken hawk while hiding behind your fucking PC? You sir are a coward come play banjo's with me sometime asshole.
Sorry RWG, Don't mean to use your house to bitch slap this idiot but it had to be done.

Z said...

Bushwack: You sir, bitch slapped nothing. FUCK YOU. Oh wow, I really bitch-slapped you there! ...No? Turns out, you have nothing to offer to counter Tom's arguments other than insults. And poor, washed up ones at that.

Try something like: Jesus, you are one ugly Jesse Ventura looking sumbitch.

Or maybe: Fuck, you have some completely terrible fashion sense to wear a bandana and sunglasses at the same time. What are you - Randy Savege or Hulk Hogan?

Don't act like you right-wingers don't know what I'm talking about.

jarhead john said...

Thanks for calling me a stupid fuck tom. Pretty brazen of you considering you're not here to do it in person. I might feel inclined to respond properly if you were. What a tool.

Last time I checked the FACTS, Bush, Blair, and even Russia had the same intel on Iraq. Intel said they had the crap, and facts are actually starting to emerge supporting it (not real big in the clinton news network, as it derails their anti-American agenda), but that's just a trivial little thing to you right?

Here's my response to your utterly childish post: NO tom, FUCK YOU!!

Yes, I'll drop to your level and use profanity in a post. I'd happily drop to your level, and go slumming for a bit, in person...but you're happily enshrined in your happy home; while I'm overseas defending your right to be a jackass.

Go spew your ignorant puke on somebody else's lap. I only hope that we meet someday so that I can repay your support in earnest. You know what the good part is? I'll keep fighting to defend your right to be an asshole. Don't thank me. Don't patronize me. Just shut the hell up and stick to something that you actually know something about you spineless bastard.

jarhead john said...

Sorry RWG. I just don't have much use for such obvious idiots. It pains me that I actually support their idiocy.

Rightwing Guy said...

go right at it my friends

Anonymous said...

I would just like to point out that it is spelled Qu'Ran...not Kuran...or Curan...or w/e.

I think Tom really has only one logical falacy in his arguement, and that is that if you didnt serve, you cant say anything about war.

Does that mean military service should be manditory in congress? How about only service men/women or ex-service men/women can vote?

It seems this is more of an ad hominim attack(for the likes of RWG and Bushwhack thats a personal attack rather than actually debating an idea)more so than a substantial arguement.

jarhead john said...

Kinda like Heinlein imagined?

"Become a citizen..."

Too bad the losers that invade our country by the millions don't feel that way...."Reconquista!"

Richard Arooga said...

Maybe you should stop the invasion - without a war - that is coming from your South. It will change your country and values forever, and already your politicians pander to the Hispanic vote.
It is your legitimate right as a nation to decide who comes to your country using whatever criteria you democratically choose - polically correct or not - and it is also your right to remove any illegals, no matter how long they have dwelled there.
And for the record, I think avery nation in the World has this right too.

Rightwing Guy said...

Very true

Tom said...

but if Saddam had complied with the inspections he could still be in power now.

That is factually inaccurate. Both Mohamed ElBaradei, and Hans Blix have acknowledged that Iraq had permitted open inspections in the 4 months leading up to the invasion. It is true that Iraq was not in compliance at various stages since the first Gulf war, they were in compliance for 4 months leading up to the invasion.

I think Tom really has only one logical falacy in his arguement, and that is that if you didnt serve, you cant say anything about war.

There is a very important distinction. If you are a rabid supporter of a war, obviously believe we are engaged in a "holy war" against Muslims, and the military is struggling month after month to meet recruitment goals, you are in your 20's, and berate anti-war Americans as "traitors", you have a moral obligation to enlist. If not, you are nothing but a hypocritical chickenhawk.

Forgive the run-on sentence there. Oh, who am I kidding.. apologizing for grammatical errors is pointless here.. as if any one has enough command of the language to notice them.

Funny how these tough guys are calling me out as if they want some sort of fist fight.. over a fucking internet blog chat thread. Holy cow that's just classic. Ya... they want to prove their manhood, and how good they can throw a punch.. but notice they aren't fighting the terraists. Hell.. the terraists shoot back, and we can't have that.

And then Richard Arooga screams "calm down boys.. you're real enemy is teh Mexicans!@!11". Oh my god.. who's going to mow my meticulously manicured lawn if Jose doesn't do it for me? I don't think many of you wingers are qualified to take care of my lawn.. based on your disdain for actual college degrees, or educational achievement.

And Z is right.. just snap into a Slimjim with that shit already. Hate to burst your bubble bubba - just like yer daddies did when he told you there was no Santa Clause - professional rastlin is fake. Just like the claims of Iraq’s WMD's.

Anonymous said...

Just thought of this...

Wasnt sending troops into Bosnia a "War to free oppressed people?"

Not to disagree, I think that the US citizenry was sold into the WMD/Imminent Threat, and it was later turned into freeing Iraqis.

However, to say we have never fought a war simply to free oppresed people seems to be false.

Z said...

professional rastlin is fake

Hey now, there's no reason professional wrestling into this.

Tom said...

However, to say we have never fought a war simply to free oppresed people seems to be false.

Nope.. nice try, but nope. Bosnia was a NATO/UN operation, that involved air power, and no ground troops. There was no American occupation.

The NATO action was called Operation Deliberate Force..

But, thanks for bringing Bosnia up.. that was a very effective use of our military.. clearly defined goals, exceptional execution of the mission objectives, and getting the hell out.

I would think that any military operation that doesn't actually involve any ground troops isn't much of a war.. especially when you consider there were no American casualties what so ever.

Still find it bizzare that anyone would advocate a war to free an opressed people - especially when you advocate genocide against the same people you want to "fee". Are you going to sign up for it? I'm sure as hell not.

Lord Brown Mouse said...

America acts in the interests of America.

But America believes it's interests are furthered if it exists in a World of democracy and freedom.

Pursuing this goal can benefit not just America, but the rest of the world.

Pursuing this goal will involve errors and sacrifice.

A world of countries like democratic India, Israel, France, denmark, Japan and Australia
is preferrable & more stable than a world of countries such as undemocratic Iran, China, North Korea, Cuba, Syria & Somalia.

And, RWG and others can support this idealogy without being in the armed forces.

Rightwing Guy said...

Point made my friend

Tom said...

I've already stated my position on what determines a chickenhawk. RWG and other's here fit the description exceptionally well.

At least some of the more "big name" conservative bloggers have said things such as "we're fighting the war of ideas here", and other similarly inane things.

But, look really closely at what LBM said.

But America believes it's interests are furthered if it exists in a World of democracy and freedom.

That's a liberal goal, obviously. I mean, you just made a tremendously obvious statement (again saying nothing really) because I think if you asked any American or any political ideology, they would agree that's an ideal goal.

But - the implication in your statement is that it is through botched military intervention that we will meet that goal. That's a big pile of poo.

There are different ideas on how you get to the goal. The "neocon" point of view is demonstrably flawed, and abjectly immoral.

Unless you own Haliburton stock that is..

Lord Brown Mouse said...

Tom - seems to me, you think life is easy. That's not the case, we would not have democracy in Britain and America if it wasn't for those people who stood up and did difficult things.

Rightwing Guy said...

very true

Tom said...

LBM said absolutely nothing again but the same vague tired clichés.

By the way.. the reason why we have democracy in America has a lot to do with the AMERICAN revolution.

The French (yes those assholes that we hate today) were handy in a few ways, mostly because the French weren't happy with the English.. but still it was an American revolution.

History shows everything you need to know about today.

Lord Brown Mouse said...

Yeah, but American democracy and values were built on those from Britain and Northern Europe Tom.

Otherwise, why were those democratic freedoms not replicated in the Southern Two thirds of America, but appear intact in Canada, Australia and New Zealand?

Tom said...

Ya.. and?

Lord Brown Mouse said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Lord Brown Mouse said...

Tom, as you seem unable to follow the thread - the point is that the sacrifices and difficult decisions resulted in democracy and freedom in the countries where people were strong.

In countries where people followed your advice of 'hoping for the best' and 'non action' it resulted in the situation you see in South America today. Also see North Korea for another example of what happens if people follow your theories to the word and refuse to make a sacrifice or do difficult things to gain freedom.

Tom - if you need further clarification just ask. LBM

Tom said...

No.. I'm sorry.. you're not getting it..

Never, in the history of the world, has a nation taken it's army to war in order to "free an oppressed people". Never.

Cite me some examples and lets delve into some history if you want.

And that's NOT how the war in Iraq was sold to the American public, and the American public would NEVER sit still for a war where 2600 Americans are dead as a result of trying to "free" some other people. Never.

I'm following the thread quite easily - but it is you that is throwing out nonsensical clichés and broad unsubstantiated themes, with little relevance to the topic at hand.

Lord Brown Mouse said...


I agree, the war was not started to free an oppressed people - at best this was a secondary side issue. It was started because we could not have a man like Saddam Hussein defying the UN resolutions passed after Gulf War I and posing such a threat to an important region.

YES - we were mis-sold the WMD cause for the war.

But I believe it was legitimate for the war to go ahead on the grounds that over several years Saddam had not given the inspection teams the full access to sites that was agreed as part of the ceasefire agreement at the end of the first gulf war.

I know on a post somewhere else, you said that Saddam complied for 4 months - I'm not sure if that is right or not - but I do know that over the 10 years following the 1st Gulf War it was a stop start affair as to whether inspections could go ahead.

If Saddam had let the inspections go ahead he would still be in power and probably helping us against the Iranians.

Tom said...

If Saddam had let the inspections go ahead he would still be in power and probably helping us against the Iranians.

LOL? wtf.. lay off the crack pipe.

Lord Brown Mouse said...

Well you may laugh but I was just making an intersting point.

If Saddam had kept to his side of the first Gulf War Surrender the Allies would have been happy. A stable Iraq, a non WMD Iraq and one that posed no threat to the region. America would have seen Iraq as a good balance to Iran.

Saddam may well have taken Gadaffi's line - and for his own benfit and survival moved towards America - and it is quite possible that America & Iraq would have seen a common threat in Iran.

Just a thought Tom. And one that is not so far out and fantastical as you may think.


Anonymous said...

1. A stable Iraq? How do weapon inspections directly effect a nations stability? He was still insane, and he was still a murderer.

2.Would we want Iraq moving towards America? Getting in bed with the bad guys to thwart other possible bad guys. This has worked so well in the past, am I right?

3. Actually, its completely fantastical. Even when weapon inspectors were allowed into Iraq, he just moved weapons around, or shipped them out of the country. We would, in all likelihood, had a more unstable region due to a perhaps inflamed Iranian nuclear program due to competition with Iraq.

But, go ahead thinking that LBM.

Lord Brown Mouse said...

My responses;

1. A stable Iraq, because it kept the same established ruler in place with an established army and security services.

2. Well Gadaffi has moved towards America recently. And America has bases in several countries that don't have perfect democratic or human rights records - but because of similar interests the US still work together with these nations.
A great example of this was how the US & UK aliied with Stalins Russia in WWII. You have to be pragmatic.

3. You are right, when weapons inspectors were in Iraq, Saddam did move weapons around. My point was based on the premise that Saddam complied completely with the inspectors demands by letter and in goodwill. He made a big mistake, he could still be in power now if he hadn't faced down the US/UK.